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A common question in the forums/newsgroups is, "I have/want <some-Eclipse-package> but also want to use <some-other-Eclipse-package>. Can I have them both in one installation? How?" Currently, the downloads page has a somewhat subtle link titled "Updating Eclipse" that links to the online help docs. To assist new users there should a prominent link that leads to instructions for installing features into one of the packages. I'd suggest text like "Want to combine more than one of theses packages? Click Here." One possible destination for that link is the "Installing New Software" section of the online help (http://help.eclipse.org/helios/index.jsp?topic=/org.eclipse.platform.doc.user/tasks/tasks-124.htm) I respect that the downloads page is a tender subject, and that it has undergone significant evolution over the years (with much lively debate), so my suggestion would be to use the space right below the "Compare Packages" and "Older Versions" links. I think that using the right gutter, it would be lost in the noise.
I'll testify that this is a valuable piece of information, and that it is adequately important on the downloads page that it is worth using space there to mention it. I spent several days looking for information on how to combine separate downloads of Eclipse into a single directory, and I was getting ready to attempt installing several versions in the same directory in the hopes that the overlapping files would result in a multi-functional installation. For your standard software installations you either have a single download that can then be configured to do the extra things you want (e.g. a Linux install or MS Visual Studio) or you have numerous incompatible installations (e.g., Active State's language run-times). The idea that you can download a program to be a Java IDE, and then perform post-install menu operations to turn it into a C++ IDE is quite foreign and not at all intuitive. In fact, I've noticed that the post-install configuration options are so numerous that you can't have a download for each. Having a single download that performs the various configurations on the fly is probably a more effective way of doing that. Baring that, I'd recommend you put some statement on the download page that the various installs could also be achieved by grabbing any of them and configuring additional functionality through the menu.
Nathan, the newsgroup/forum/IRC guys field a lot of these questions... Any ideas on how to alleviate some pain?
Any chance we can get this addressed for or before the Juno release?
I recall commenting on a similar bug recently, but can't find it. Does this sound familiar to anybody? Regardless, I think this is a good idea. What is the message we want to provide? e.g. use the Eclipse Marketplace to add features; use the "Help > Install New Software..." option; both?(In reply to comment #0) > my > suggestion would be to use the space right below the "Compare Packages" and > "Older Versions" links. I think that using the right gutter, it would be lost > in the noise. +1
Chris can you take a look at this please.
> > my > > suggestion would be to use the space right below the "Compare Packages" and > > "Older Versions" links. I think that using the right gutter, it would be lost > > in the noise. > > +1 There is not a lot of space here. We would have to make that grey box bigger to fit another link here. Should we do that or should we add a link under related links in the right column? If we want to make this link more noticeable maybe we could add a button in the purple " Eclipse Downloads" banner. I could see an help button there on the right with the caption : "Need help Installing New Software?" Either way where would that link go? I found this but it's from Helios : http://help.eclipse.org/helios/index.jsp?topic=%2Forg.eclipse.platform.doc.user%2Ftasks%2Ftasks-124.htm Do we have something more up-to-date?
(In reply to comment #6) > > > my > > > suggestion would be to use the space right below the "Compare Packages" and > > > "Older Versions" links. I think that using the right gutter, it would be lost > > > in the noise. > > There is not a lot of space here. We would have to make that grey box bigger to > fit another link here. > > Should we do that or should we add a link under related links in the right > column? I'm pretty convinced that most people don't notice or pay attention to those links in the right column. Usually when I've pointed out one of them to someone, the response, if any, has been "Oh, I didn't see that." > > If we want to make this link more noticeable maybe we could add a button in the > purple " Eclipse Downloads" banner. > > I could see an help button there on the right with the caption : "Need help > Installing New Software?" Not a bad ideao, IMO. But I was hoping for a specific callout for this specific question, not just a generic "Help" action. Maybe a button with the caption "Need help choosing?" and a DHTML popup that contains "Combining two or more of theses packages" (link to the help - see below) along with the "Install Guide" and "Compare Packages" links. > > Either way where would that link go? I found this but it's from Helios : > http://help.eclipse.org/helios/index.jsp?topic=%2Forg.eclipse.platform.doc.user%2Ftasks%2Ftasks-124.htm > > Do we have something more up-to-date? The current version is the similar URL: http://help.eclipse.org/indigo/index.jsp?topic=/org.eclipse.platform.doc.user/tasks/tasks-124.htm I'm sure there will be a new URL once Juno goes live.
I really don't want to add another button on this page. It is already too busy so adding another ui element is not the direction I'd like to see. @eric your point about people not seeing the links is exactly why I don't want to add more to this page. Why don't we expand the Compare Packages page to include information on how to combine packages. Maybe even rename that link to be Compare/Combine Packages. I think what we should also focus on is making sure we have the correct content. Chris nor I can provide this content. If we can get the content, I am pretty sure people will start to find it through Google.
I think the Compare Packages link is too easy to overlook; I also think the links under the ad in the right column are too easy to overlook. I would like to see both replaced with a "Help Choosing and Installing" button/link that pops up a list of all those links plus a link to the "installing new features" page (the purpose of this bug). I like Chis' idea of putting that in the purple banner where it's more prominent. Doing this would also serve to clean some clutter off the page. As for content, I think it's already there. We're jut talking about adding links to the downloads page to content that already exists and, IMO, is pretty good.
(In reply to comment #9) > I think the Compare Packages link is too easy to overlook; Our Google Analytics data would beg to differ. The compare page has had 40K pageviews in the last 30 days. > I also think the > links under the ad in the right column are too easy to overlook. I would like > to see both replaced with a "Help Choosing and Installing" button/link that > pops up a list of all those links plus a link to the "installing new features" > page (the purpose of this bug). I like Chis' idea of putting that in the purple > banner where it's more prominent. Doing this would also serve to clean some > clutter off the page. Sorry but if we start adding buttons for every important question we need to answer on the download page, then we will end up with a mess. > > As for content, I think it's already there. We're jut talking about adding > links to the downloads page to content that already exists and, IMO, is pretty > good. I am hoping we can do better than just pointing to a general link on our help docs about Install New Software. If this is such an important question that needs to be answered on our download page then we should have very specific step by step instructions on how to combine packages. I also think we need this content for SEO reason. Right now when you enter into Google 'How to combine Eclipse packages' you get linked to stackoverflow but not our help docs. We know a lot of developers use Google to find information about Eclipse, so we need to make sure our key content is Google friendly.
(In reply to comment #10) > (In reply to comment #9) > > I think the Compare Packages link is too easy to overlook; > > Our Google Analytics data would beg to differ. The compare page has had 40K > pageviews in the last 30 days. I'm glad to hear that, actually. I was about to ask the webmasters what kind of data we have for this page. Making these decisions based (in part) on real data is a lot better than "I like..." and "I think..." > > I also think the > > links under the ad in the right column are too easy to overlook. I would like > > to see both replaced with a "Help Choosing and Installing" button/link that > > pops up a list of all those links plus a link to the "installing new features" > > page (the purpose of this bug). I like Chis' idea of putting that in the purple > > banner where it's more prominent. Doing this would also serve to clean some > > clutter off the page. > > Sorry but if we start adding buttons for every important question we need to > answer on the download page, then we will end up with a mess. I think my proposal has been misunderstood. I'm not proposing adding buttons - I'm proposing replacing a handful of separate links with a single link or button. It would trigger DHTML that exposed this group of links that are currently scattered around the page, thus reducing clutter. It would be labeled something like "Help Choosing and Installing" and contain the following: * Compare Packages * How to Combine Packages * Install Guide * Known Issues * Updating Eclipse Those links would be removed from their current positions on the page. I tried to put together a mock-up of what I'm talking about, but my photoshop skills are weak and I don't have time to mock up HTML. > > > > As for content, I think it's already there. We're jut talking about adding > > links to the downloads page to content that already exists and, IMO, is pretty > > good. > > I am hoping we can do better than just pointing to a general link on our help > docs about Install New Software. If this is such an important question that > needs to be answered on our download page then we should have very specific > step by step instructions on how to combine packages. > > I also think we need this content for SEO reason. Right now when you enter > into Google 'How to combine Eclipse packages' you get linked to stackoverflow > but not our help docs. We know a lot of developers use Google to find > information about Eclipse, so we need to make sure our key content is Google > friendly. I guess that wouldn't be too hard to put together, but I think it would pretty much be a copy+paste job of much of what is on the Help page already. That help page is actually very thorough and well-written, IMO. I'm not sure how it could be improved upon as a general website page. If it's not SEO friendly, can we improve that part of it? By the way, most of the time when I search for anything Eclipse-related, StackOverflow is usually at the top of the list. They really have SEO conquered and their content is high-quality. I'm not sure that's a bad thing, or that the eclipse.org pages need to compare themselves against that standard.
(In reply to comment #11) > (In reply to comment #10) > > (In reply to comment #9) > > > I think the Compare Packages link is too easy to overlook; > > > > Our Google Analytics data would beg to differ. The compare page has had 40K > > pageviews in the last 30 days. > > I'm glad to hear that, actually. I was about to ask the webmasters what kind of > data we have for this page. Making these decisions based (in part) on real data > is a lot better than "I like..." and "I think..." Forgot to mention: in light of that data, maybe my proposal for a "help container" link could go where Compare Packages is now. I guess the next data question to ask is, of those 40k hits, how many came from the downloads page? Hopefully, it's a high percentage.
Created attachment 215869 [details] Rough mock-up of my "help link" proposal
As a relatively new user of Eclipse I would add some information from my fresh experience to get an Eclipse environment. A) I was confused by the varying number of downloads, and the various different providers of Eclipse builds. B) I was confused by the varying different names "indego" "incubation" "helios". These don't mean anything to me, and there wasn't an explanation on the pages offering them. Would be simpler to only offer the latest version, and use a version numbering system like "Eclipse 6", then when next version, archive all old downloads in an archive section of website, and only offer the latest "Eclipse 7" version for the public. eclipse-cpp-helios-SR2-win32.zip eclipse-cpp-indigo-incubation-win32.zip eclipse-SDK-indigo-installer-windows.exe The former two ZIP files, weren't actually installers. Which I have grown accustomed to. C) I only wanted Eclipse to edit some C files, and check the spelling in the C file source code comments. The problems I encountered: i) Spell check is not documented. I did find in the Editor Preferences, however it was already enabled, and did not work. ii) Dragging a C file into Eclipse would not open the file in the edit, it instead opened in Editplus that I have on my machine. iii) I needed to install a different version, CDT of Eclipse to edit C files. Spell check still not working. iv) I found I needed to create a project, and link to directory to be able to get the spell check to work. What I would change 1) Single download, don't offer such a variety of installers. Rationalise and don't link to third party downloads, this only dilutes and confuses the setup. Take a look at LibraOffice or other sites that offer latest versions only. 2) Solve editing C files, so works in all versions. 3) Solve spell check, so works in any file opened, and doesn't need to go through the process of creating a project. Good luck, and thank you for creating such a cool useful product! Jon
(In reply to comment #14) Jon, thanks for the feedback. Some comments below. > A) I was confused by the varying number of downloads, and the various different > providers of Eclipse builds. We have tried to create the packages to target specific types of developers, ex C/C++ or Java developers. If we combined everything Eclipse has to offer into one download, it would be very very large. :-) > > B) I was confused by the varying different names "indego" "incubation" > "helios". These don't mean anything to me, and there wasn't an explanation on > the pages offering them. Would be simpler to only offer the latest version, and > use a version numbering system like "Eclipse 6", then when next version, > archive all old downloads in an archive section of website, and only offer the > latest "Eclipse 7" version for the public. Good point on offering an explanation on the Indigo and Helios names. FWIW, these are the names of our annual releases. We actually only offer the latest release from our main download page. We do need to offer previous releases, since some people ask for them, but these aren't from our main download page. > > eclipse-cpp-helios-SR2-win32.zip > eclipse-cpp-indigo-incubation-win32.zip > eclipse-SDK-indigo-installer-windows.exe > > The former two ZIP files, weren't actually installers. Which I have grown > accustomed to. Using an installer program has been debated in our community. Unfortunately for you people tend to prefer the simplicity of just unzipping a file. > > C) I only wanted Eclipse to edit some C files, and check the spelling in the C > file source code comments. The problems I encountered: > > i) Spell check is not documented. I did find in the Editor Preferences, however > it was already enabled, and did not work. > > ii) Dragging a C file into Eclipse would not open the file in the edit, it > instead opened in Editplus that I have on my machine. > > iii) I needed to install a different version, CDT of Eclipse to edit C files. > Spell check still not working. > > iv) I found I needed to create a project, and link to directory to be able to > get the spell check to work. These are all usability suggestions for the CDT project. I'd suggest you open a separate bug with the CDT project for these issues. > > > What I would change > > 1) Single download, don't offer such a variety of installers. Rationalise and > don't link to third party downloads, this only dilutes and confuses the setup. > Take a look at LibraOffice or other sites that offer latest versions only. > > 2) Solve editing C files, so works in all versions. > > 3) Solve spell check, so works in any file opened, and doesn't need to go > through the process of creating a project. > > Good luck, and thank you for creating such a cool useful product! Thanks again for your feedback. It is appreciated.
Here is a test version of the download page with a link to combine/compare packages in the right sidebar. http://www.eclipse.org/downloads/test.php This page leads to a test version of the compare packages page. Currently we have placement text that needs to be replace with some real text. Also we will need a new updated page for the "Source code" link on the download page.
(In reply to comment #16) > Here is a test version of the download page with a link to combine/compare > packages in the right sidebar. > > http://www.eclipse.org/downloads/test.php +1 I think/hope it captures what Eric and this bug was trying to convey but also simplify the download page. > > This page leads to a test version of the compare packages page. Currently we > have placement text that needs to be replace with some real text. Wayne or Eric or others, can someone please help provide some text to answer the question 'How to combine packages?' If we just point to a help section that says 'Install new software', we are not really provide a descriptive answer to the question. I appreciate that help section provides most of the answer but it needs to be put in context. > > Also we will need a new updated page for the "Source code" link on the download > page. Source code link points to How to CVS. Is there an equivalent for git?
(In reply to comment #16) > Here is a test version of the download page with a link to combine/compare > packages in the right sidebar. > > http://www.eclipse.org/downloads/test.php > > This page leads to a test version of the compare packages page. Currently we > have placement text that needs to be replace with some real text. > > Also we will need a new updated page for the "Source code" link on the download > page. While I still like my layout concept better, this will work. But a couple of issue to note: 1) I'm not sure combining Compare and Combine into a single page will work. The current Compare Packages page is pretty complex as it is, so I I think there's a chance that the "how to combine" content will get lost there. Of course, I still don't see much in that content other than the link to the Help page and a brief "context" explanation, so maybe it will work. 2) We've lost the "Known Issues" link. I think it's important, especially as it talks about two historically common problems, Widows ZIP handling and gcj on Linux. Can you put it in the list, below "Compare/Combine Pacakges?"
(In reply to comment #17) > > This page leads to a test version of the compare packages page. Currently we > > have placement text that needs to be replace with some real text. > > Wayne or Eric or others, can someone please help provide some text to answer > the question 'How to combine packages?' If we just point to a help section > that says 'Install new software', we are not really provide a descriptive > answer to the question. I appreciate that help section provides most of the > answer but it needs to be put in context. Here's a quick cut at it: These packages are provided as a convenience to users; they represent common configurations of Eclipse projects that are often used together. However, since Eclipse is, at its core, an expandable platform, you can easily add other features and plugins to any of these packages. Just choose and install the package that most closely meets your needs, then follow these instructions [link to Install New Software Juno help page] to add features that you need. > > > > Also we will need a new updated page for the "Source code" link on the download > > page. > > Source code link points to How to CVS. Is there an equivalent for git? If there isn't, I suggest we remove the link from this page. Actually, I think it would be better to removed it anyway. The recently revamped http://www.eclipse.org/users/ does a good job of directing users who want to get involved.
> 2) We've lost the "Known Issues" link. I think it's important, especially as it > talks about two historically common problems, Widows ZIP handling and gcj on > Linux. Can you put it in the list, below "Compare/Combine Pacakges?" I added the link back. (In reply to comment #19) > (In reply to comment #17) > > > This page leads to a test version of the compare packages page. Currently we > > > have placement text that needs to be replace with some real text. > > > > Wayne or Eric or others, can someone please help provide some text to answer > > the question 'How to combine packages?' If we just point to a help section > > that says 'Install new software', we are not really provide a descriptive > > answer to the question. I appreciate that help section provides most of the > > answer but it needs to be put in context. > > Here's a quick cut at it: > These packages are provided as a convenience to users; they represent common > configurations of Eclipse projects that are often used together. However, since > Eclipse is, at its core, an expandable platform, you can easily add other > features and plugins to any of these packages. Just choose and install the > package that most closely meets your needs, then follow these instructions > [link to Install New Software Juno help page] to add features that you need. > Thank you for the text. I am now using your text on my test version : http://www.eclipse.org/downloads/compare2.php > > > > > > Also we will need a new updated page for the "Source code" link on the download > > > page. > > > > Source code link points to How to CVS. Is there an equivalent for git? > > If there isn't, I suggest we remove the link from this page. Actually, I think > it would be better to removed it anyway. The recently revamped > http://www.eclipse.org/users/ does a good job of directing users who want to > get involved. I've removed the source code link on my test page : http://www.eclipse.org/downloads/test.php Are we ready to use these change on the live download page?
The "update" link points to the Helios doc. It should point to Juno (even though the content hasn't changed).
(In reply to comment #21) > The "update" link points to the Helios doc. It should point to Juno (even > though the content hasn't changed). The link now points to the Juno docs. Thanks Wayne!
I'm fine with it at this point.
(In reply to comment #23) > I'm fine with it at this point. The eclipse download page is now live with the new changes.
Resolving it - the content is there and (mostly) easily noticeable.
