Bugzilla – Full Text Bug Listing
| Summary: | [Accessibility] Dialogs not read correctly by JAWS | ||||||
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| Product: | [Eclipse Project] Platform | Reporter: | Kim Woods <kim_woods> | ||||
| Component: | SWT | Assignee: | Carolyn MacLeod <carolynmacleod4> | ||||
| Status: | CLOSED WONTFIX | QA Contact: | |||||
| Severity: | major | ||||||
| Priority: | P3 | CC: | dipalerm, grant_gayed, Lmao, Mike_Wilson, pombredanne, steven.wasleski, Tod_Creasey, vilmar | ||||
| Version: | 3.0 | Keywords: | accessibility | ||||
| Target Milestone: | --- | ||||||
| Hardware: | PC | ||||||
| OS: | Windows XP | ||||||
| Whiteboard: | stalebug | ||||||
| Attachments: |
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Description
Kim Woods
This should be fixed in very recent JAWS upgrades (5.00.809). *** This bug has been marked as a duplicate of 21771 *** I'm not sure this is a duplicate of 21771 as I am using a later level of JAWS V 5.00.844 and this does not read the help dialog described above or some of my own dialog static text. If you are hearing text correctly are there some options I should set on JAWS ??? Car can you try this, assuming that your JAWS has the label reading fix? JAWS does read the label in the help preferences as soon as you click on "Help" in the tree. I checked every page in the preferences dialog, and all statics are read correctly as soon as you open each page. There is a known problem with eclipse F1 help dialogs (popups) not having the label text read (we are working on that), and there is a known JAWS problem with INS+B not rereading all controls in a dialog properly (I have reported this to Freedom Scientific). I am running JAWS 5.00.809 on Windows XP with the 6.0 manifest (i.e. to enable Windows common controls version 6.0). The version of eclipse I am running is build 200404270800. Where did you get JAWS 5.00.844? I was under the impression that 5.00.809 was the absolute latest. Frank, do you have any insight on this strange JAWS version? Maybe the JAWS folks have introduced some new problem(s) if their 844 version is not reading static text in dialogs. The current version of JAWS is 5.00.844. They do maintenance releases every so often as they fix bugs. Here's a pointer to that download: http://www.freedomscientific.com/fs_downloads/jaws.asp OK. I downloaded JAWS 844 and tried it, and *phew* it reads the static labels in the dialogs correctly. I was worried for a minute there that they might have changed something that broke our dialogs. So it looks like we are ok there. Kim, we need to figure out what is different in your installation compared to mine. What version of eclipse are you running? Which Windows OS do you use? If you are running Windows XP, do you have the javaw.exe.manifest file for eclipse located in the jre\bin directory of your Java VM so that you are using version 6.0 of the Windows Common Controls? (I honestly do not know if this would affect MSAA; and in particular, if it would make the Windows Static control more accessible, but it seems to me that it could). Here's a bit more info on that (note that the link below may be split across 2 lines): http://dev.eclipse.org/viewcvs/index.cgi/~checkout~/platform-swt- home/faq.html#xpthemes Hello Carolyn I am running XP and I did not have the manifest file in the jre/bin directory - I have added it but it seems to make no difference - do I need to set anything else up???? I am using an eclipse build within the workbench product and I experience this problem on both Eclipse 2.1 build 200306271545 with an IBM 1.4.1 JRE Eclipse 3.0 build 200401301130 with an IBM 1.4.2 JRE When I mouse button down on the help in the tree view of the preference page it says "Tree view help closed 5 of 14", nothing on the right hand side is read until I hit the tab button and it goes straight to the list view - nothing above the checkbox is read. Is there some JAWS setup or usage that I have not got right - I am very new to JAWS. Kim. There's nothing else you need to set up in either JAWS or eclipse. So, the 2 differences between your setup and mine are: - you are using the IBM JRE and I am using Sun's - your versions of eclipse are older than mine I am going to try the IBM JRE, and if JAWS still works, I'll try using an older eclipse. I'll let you know what happens. Only had time today to try the IBM VM - no difference - JAWS reads the Preferences dialog labels just fine. I tried several pages, including Help. Hopefully tomorrow I will get a minute to go back and try an older eclipse. Is it possible for you to upgrade to today's integration build (it seems pretty stable - I have been using it all day), or are you running a product built on top of eclipse that hasn't upgraded yet? If so, do you know if they will be upgrading to 3.0 when it is released? If so, then JAWS may just work for you when that happens... ;) Tod & Frank, can you please do me a favour? Can you run JAWS on a fairly recent version of eclipse, and see if it reads the label at the top of the "Window->Preferences... Help" page for you? (i.e. The line that reads "The selections determines web browsers used...". Hmmm... the grammar in that sentence is a little off... <g>) Kim has tried it with the May 6 integration build, and it still doesn't work for her. All she gets is JAWS saying "tree view Help closed 4 of 9". I get that, too, but then JAWS also reads the label and the rest of the controls on the right. In fact, for me, JAWS reads pretty much everything on every page of the prefs dialog. Kim and I have both tried running the same OS, VM, eclipse build, and JAWS version (5.00.844) and yet we still somehow have differences. Frank, how do I reset JAWS to its factory defaults absolutely everywhere? Do I have to go around deleting jcf files? Or is there some global "reset" switch somewhere? I have tried both the current version of JAWS, 5.00.844, and a beta of version 5.1 which is not yet available to the public. Neither of them read the static text at the top of the help settings dialog as I tabbed through the fields. Please see my comment on Bug 55652 re static text reading. Carolyn, to remove any special settings: 1. Go to JAWS50\settings\enu and erase any .JCF files associated with your app. In this case, JAVAW. 2. Open the configuration manager with the default configuration file. Select Reset to factory defaults. That should put you back to original settings. I deleted my C:\JAWS50\SETTINGS\enu\javaw.jcf file, and now JAWS does not speak the text at the top of the preference dialog pages (i.e. the help text is not read... i.e. I am experiencing what you are experiencing). Here is the contents of the file that I deleted, as viewed in WordPad: [OSM] VertCaretMaxX=3 [Highlight Colors] 000000000/236233216=1 [WindowClasses] Button=Button [MSAAClasses] SysTreeView32=1 I will also attach the file, in case maybe there is some binary component. Frank, I don't see which setting could possibly have fixed the preferences dialog. I tried reassigning the SysTreeView32 window class to MSAA, but that didn't help. Reassigning Button to Button is silly, and of course has no effect. It looks like the vertical caret maximum width is already 3, so I can't change that. And I don't recall how we changed the highlight color. Anyhow, somewhere in this file there may be a hint for the JAWS folks on how they can read our labels in dialogs. Created attachment 10807 [details]
JAWS JCF file that causes Help preference page text to be read
While attaching this file, I happened to notice a file in the same directory
called "javaw.jbs". What is that and might it be useful somehow?
Carolyn, I think I might put my guess on the highlight. What that told JAWS is that 000000000/236233216 is a highlight and needs to be spoken every time text appears in that color set. 0, of course, is black, but I don't know what the other color is. So that means that black characters on the 236233216 background is treated as if it was a highlighted field. Too funny. I wonder what else has been read correctly for me ever since we added that highlight setting. Hmmm... I wonder if this is considered 508 compliancy? :) Actually, Frank, since JAWS may not get their fixes released until after our 3.0 release, do you mind listing the steps we did to add that highlight setting? Who knows, maybe it might help someone out there. Thanks! Am I reading this correctly that we are down to JAWS fixes and possibly a readme item on highlight settings on this one? Correct - I am not going to do anything else on this AT THIS TIME, until I hear back from the JAWS folks on how it's going with this problem. I sent them (through Frank) a very simple test case. If they can figure out how to read that correctly, then they will be able to read all of our dialogs. I believe Frank and Kim were trying to figure out how to set the highlight so that we can write up the work-around for others to use until it is fixed for real. Reopening this bug report for problem tracking purposes. *** Bug 55652 has been marked as a duplicate of this bug. *** Just curious, has anyone heard anything back from the JAWS people on this one? The ball has been sitting in their court for a while. Carolyn, do we know the timeframe for the JAWS fix? Here is what the Freedom Scientific (JAWS) people said in June: From Joe: "When a dialog gains focus JAWS is supposed to read the title, the dialog's static text, the group box title and the focused control's prompt, type, state and content." Frank, a few questions for you: 1) When does the next version of JAWS ship? 2) What is the current status of the Eclipse work with Freedom Scientific? 3) Did you ever figure out the steps to repeat that great highlight workaround? Thanks! I should have pasted the entire communication with Freedom Scientific that pertained to INS+B not working the way we expect it to. Here it is: Carolyn, through Frank, said: 1. INS+B does not speak the MSAA names, even if giving focus to the control does. INS+B should speak MSAA names if they are available. Relevant eclipse bugs: a. 59813 b. 15320 c. Note that we are not the only application that would benefit from fixing this - the problem was noted in Photoshop as well. FS Answer: ERNIE: Joe, what is the best definition of the INS+B behavior? I have experienced the following. I recall that a graphic in the tab order would interrupt the speaking of the dialog. I recall that the InstallShield dialog templates had a graphic at the top of the tab order. Although the graphic did not have the "Tab stop" property, it was still a problem. After I placed the graphic at the end of the tab order and re-ordered the other controls, the dialog would speak properly. In my opinion, if the tab order is correct, INS+B should not have a problem. Is this different when using MSAA? Frank DiPalermo indicated that many of the people at IBM think INS+B fails most of the time. If this is true, then I view this as a major bug. Also, didn't JAWS, a long time ago, use to automatically speak the entire dialog contents when the dialog was displayed? Was this removed around JAWS 3.5 or 3.7 because people thought that this made JAWS too chatty and that the user could always press INS+B at anytime anyway? Or was this removed because it was unreliable? Joe: When a dialog gains focus JAWS is supposed to read the title, the dialog's static text, the group box title and the focused control's prompt, type, state and content. At no time did it read the entire dialog. Ins+b is supposed to read each control in the dialog in the tab order. Further info from JAWS: They say that this is not a JAWS bug. Here are their notes: 1. Window, Preferences, Help is an example. 2. JAWS does not read static text as focus moves to the dialog side of the window. 3. Alt+Tabbing out and back causes this text to be read. 4. This is not a bug. JAWS is not designed to read this kind of text on focus change. 5. Eclipse development might like to analyze how static text is used in this situation. Tod & MVM, you & I need to get together to discuss this. Note also that JAWS will probably not be changing the way that INS+B works because they say that all other apps are way too verbose if they actually read all controls. They say that for most eclipse dialogs, they need to go down at least 5 levels of children before they can read all of the pertinent controls, and that's a lot more levels than other applications. Just a further comment on the Ins+B thing: As Carolyn said, JAWS currently looks at objects in the highest level of the hierarchy to determine what to read. We experimented with going down two more levels, but that only resulted in a couple of more Eclipse objects being read from the Preferences dialogs. Going any further results in difficulties in other apps like reading all the list items from a combo box. I am going to write up a procedure whereby JAWS might capture every object and then do some analysis in deciding what to say. Then we'll try to get the Freedom Scientific folks to code it for JAWS 7. We'll keep you informed. Any more on this? This bug hasn't had any activity in quite some time. Maybe the problem got resolved, was a duplicate of something else, or became less pressing for some reason - or maybe it's still relevant but just hasn't been looked at yet. If you have further information on the current state of the bug, please add it. The information can be, for example, that the problem still occurs, that you still want the feature, that more information is needed, or that the bug is (for whatever reason) no longer relevant. If the request is still relevant please remove the stalebug whiteboard tag. |