Bugzilla – Full Text Bug Listing
| Summary: | Mylyn Task List view is too intrusive in the Java perspective | ||
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| Product: | z_Archived | Reporter: | Lars Vogel <Lars.Vogel> |
| Component: | Mylyn | Assignee: | Mylyn Inbox <mylyn-inbox> |
| Status: | CLOSED MOVED | QA Contact: | |
| Severity: | normal | ||
| Priority: | P3 | CC: | daniel_megert, Ed.Merks, gavin, gunnar, konstantin, Lars.Vogel, marcel.bruch, scolebourne, steffen.pingel, thomas.kinnen, wayne.beaton, wim.jongman |
| Version: | 3.17 | ||
| Target Milestone: | --- | ||
| Hardware: | All | ||
| OS: | All | ||
| See Also: | https://git.eclipse.org/r/c/mylyn/org.eclipse.mylyn.tasks/+/186865 | ||
| Whiteboard: | |||
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Description
Lars Vogel
I believe the reason for having it as a separate view is related to the context functionality of Mylyn. However, assuming that the majority of Mylyn users do not use the context functionality, the Mylyn perspective fulfills their needs better. However, before removing it completely we should investigate alternative options. For example, instead of placing it below the Outline view it could go "behind" the Outline view into the same stack. That's definitely less intrusive. Lars, it would also help if you could quantify "several" customer. The decision is certainly easier if we can get some sense if the number outweighs the number of users using it currently. FWIW, I changed the title so that we are discussing the problem and come up with a solution rather then imposing a single solution. (In reply to Gunnar Wagenknecht from comment #1) > However, before removing it completely we should investigate alternative > options. For example, instead of placing it below the Outline view it could > go "behind" the Outline view into the same stack. That's definitely less > intrusive. This would be better, but I think the "best" solution would be to leave it to the user to add views. > Lars, it would also help if you could quantify "several" customer. The > decision is certainly easier if we can get some sense if the number > outweighs the number of users using it currently. I know of two customers which avoid the EPP's and use the Eclipse SDK because of Mylyn. Several other developers complained about it, but I did not keep a list how many. In general I would guess that 80 - 90 % of the developers I work with (in trainings, workshops, etc) do not use Mylyn for there day to day work. Those who use it, love it. Here is one feedback from the "secret" Java champion list, where I asked other Java champions what we should do to improve Eclipse: Here is one of the replies (I explained to the person the existence of the SDK download). -------------- 2) Provide a way to fully disable unwanted features. This relates primarily to git and mylyn (in my case). This matters, because Eclipse is currently not distributing a bare-bones download, so users end up with plugins they don't want. And since these plugins are from the download, they are hard to get rid of. --------------- Here is another, less political correct answer: --------------- 4.) Make Mylyn go away and die, please. --------------- The number #1 goal of the default perspective layout has to be getting new users productive as quickly as possible. We aren't going to satisfy the desires of expert users no matter what we do. They all customize their layout in different ways and no two will agree on the layout. In considering the option of removing the tasks view from the Java perspective, we must weigh slightly inconveniencing some users who know they don't want this view against helping new users discover that Eclipse can indeed integrate with bug tracking systems. Moving the tasks view into an existing stack, is a good idea though. Two vertical stacks are unusable for anything serious outside of very large monitors. I asked via Twitter for more opinions: https://twitter.com/vogella/status/658938098001297408 I agree that it should be removed. It doesn't have anything (directly) to do with Java, therefore it should not added by default. Many of my colleges at work have complained about this, and the first thing we do after installing a new eclipse is remove the task view from the Java perspective, as we never use it. I agree with Lars that it should be removed completely, even if placing it into an existing stack would already be a significant improvement to the current default layout. Look, here's my 2c: Mylyn simply doesn't belong in the package by default. It seems to me that much less than 10% of Eclipse developers actually use this thing or even understand what it is. Folks who do want it can *easily* install it the way they install all other plugins. I mean, what do we even have this wonderful modular architecture for if we throw optional stuff that is not of interest to most users into the main packages? FTR, the very first two things I always do *immediately* with a new installation of Eclipse are: 1. Switch the Appearance from Mac (ugh) to Classic, and 2. close the stoopid Mylyn Tasks view. My experience with Mylyn is that simply its presence as a plugin causes the whole of Eclipse to slow down and become unstable. It feels like the Mylyn tentacles reach everywhere. This will of course seem very unfair to the authors of Mylyn. As such, my experience is that simply hiding the UI component is missing the point. What is needed is a way to get rid of it entirely. Whether that be a mechanism to disable plugins from standard downloads, replacing standard downloads with a "choose your plugins" tickbox list, or redefining the standard downloads doesn't really matter. Right now, the only approach to avoid Mylyn is to download the SDK. Gavin, Stephen the option to remove Mylyn from an installation should be discussed via a separate bug on the EPP component. I'm sure there is already one but as I could not find one, I opened Bug 480756. (In reply to Stephen Colebourne from comment #8) > My experience with Mylyn is that simply its presence as a plugin causes the > whole of Eclipse to slow down and become unstable. It feels like the Mylyn > tentacles reach everywhere. Stephen, it would help a lot if those arguments can be backed with some data. Otherwise this is more of a subjective feeling, which is hard to base decisions on. FWIW, if you don't use it there shouldn't be any slowdown. The Context UI is not enabled by default AFAIK. (In reply to comment #1) > I believe the reason for having it as a separate view is related to the context > functionality of Mylyn. However, assuming that the majority of Mylyn users do No, I don't think the task list view has anything to do with context. It's there to provide access to tasks. > not use the context functionality, the Mylyn perspective fulfills their needs > better. AFAIK Mylyn does not contribute any perspectives to Eclipse. (In reply to Sam Davis from comment #11) > (In reply to comment #1) > > I believe the reason for having it as a separate view is related to the context > > functionality of Mylyn. However, assuming that the majority of Mylyn users do > > No, I don't think the task list view has anything to do with context. It's > there to provide access to tasks. Sorry, I was not clear enough. Access to the tasks is necessary for switching between contexts. Thus, having the task list in the perspective is a usability benefit for context users. > AFAIK Mylyn does not contribute any perspectives to Eclipse. You are right. I was confusing this with the Planning perspective our product is contributing. :) (In reply to comment #12) > (In reply to Sam Davis from comment #11) > > (In reply to comment #1) > > > I believe the reason for having it as a separate view is related to the > context > > > functionality of Mylyn. However, assuming that the majority of Mylyn users > do > > > > No, I don't think the task list view has anything to do with context. It's > > there to provide access to tasks. > > Sorry, I was not clear enough. Access to the tasks is necessary for switching > between contexts. Thus, having the task list in the perspective is a usability > benefit for context users. Ok, but anyone using Mylyn, whether using context or not, needs to access tasks. (In reply to comment #1) > However, before removing it completely we should investigate alternative > options. For example, instead of placing it below the Outline view it could go > "behind" the Outline view into the same stack. That's definitely less intrusive. Personally, I would rather remove the Outline view from the perspective! It's completely unnecessary when using context and the first thing I do after installing Eclipse is to close the Outline view. My point, of course, is that I don't think there is any way to satisfy everybody here, and we would need a very strong case to make any change to the perspective. (In reply to comment #12) > > AFAIK Mylyn does not contribute any perspectives to Eclipse. > > You are right. I was confusing this with the Planning perspective our product is > contributing. :) The Planning perspective is contributed by Mylyn: org.eclipse.mylyn.tasks/org.eclipse.mylyn.tasks.ui/plugin.xml. (In reply to comment #15) > > The Planning perspective is contributed by Mylyn: > org.eclipse.mylyn.tasks/org.eclipse.mylyn.tasks.ui/plugin.xml. You're right. Sorry Gunnar, my mistake. I looked but somehow didn't find it. Frankly, I have a hard time justifying any action here. I count four people on this bug raising comments for removing it. That clearly is not enough for making any decision. We simply have no idea how many we would screw up with removing it. Either this can be backed with some real usability data (eg., performing a study or putting in some tracking into Eclipse) or there is some meritocracy (eg., UI lead) coming up with a big plan for the Eclipse IDE as a whole (where this might be a subitem of). To cite a quote I heard lately: I would rather do nothing then doing it wrong. *** Bug 491899 has been marked as a duplicate of this bug. *** Discussion just resurfaced: https://dev.eclipse.org/mhonarc/lists/epp-dev/msg05186.html Note, it took a few years, though. :) However, I think the key message is that the separate Tasks View is enough for some people to cause a negative experience. Ignoring the the religious/opinionated motivation driving most of the discussions for now, would you reconsider moving the Tasks View into the Outline View Stack? I still don't think we have enough data - 1 message in 3 years - to justify making such a change. Who knows how many complaint messages there will be if we make the change? Also note that that thread was started based on a false premise, looking at the number of commits in just one of our repositories, the one that doesn't actually contain any of our source code. So, what about moving the Mylyn view in the same stack as Outline? Is that OK? Yes, the firs thing I do is move it under the outline; and that's when it doesn't come up with errors, which it always does in my self hosting launches. Then I just close it. Sam, as Mylyn has already been removed from some EPP and you indicates that development is not so active anymore, are you willing to accept a change which removes the view from the default Java perspective? Mylyn is AFAIK still the only plug-in which adds itself so prominent. I don't see a reason to make that change given it has been removed from EPP packages. I would lean toward removing it from the remaining packages if the package maintainers don't want it there. But they have explicitly chosen to keep it in their packages so far. Thanks Sam for the answer. Sam, it's really the Task View Java perspective contribution which seems to upset a lot people with Mylyn. I suspect that the use case is a clean start, which does not persist perspective modifications. Hence, the Task List view shows up every time. I don't understand the motivation to insist on the default contribution to the Java perspective. I think it never established itself as a common practise. Mylyn seems to be the alien here. Can you please reconsider the decision to not welcome a patch to address that? Reopen for discussion. New Gerrit change created: https://git.eclipse.org/r/c/mylyn/org.eclipse.mylyn.tasks/+/186865 (In reply to Eclipse Genie from comment #28) > New Gerrit change created: > https://git.eclipse.org/r/c/mylyn/org.eclipse.mylyn.tasks/+/186865 Remove tasks view from the Java Perspective Remove "new task" from the Java Perspective wizards shortcut Keep Tasks View in the Java Perspective view shortcut Remove tasks view from the Java Browsing perspective Remove "new task" from the Java Browsing perspective wizards shortcut Mylyn has been restructured, and our issue tracking has moved to GitHub [1]. We are closing ~14K Bugzilla issues to give the new team a fresh start. If you feel that this issue is still relevant, please create a new one on GitHub. [1] https://github.com/orgs/eclipse-mylyn |